Oxidation Friend or Foe

Continuing the discussion from Homogenizer Project - Another Step Forward:

I wanted to answer this in a new topic and it would send the og topic off the rails.

Oxidation is generally the foe of e-liquid, however, there is one particular circumstance where I feel it works as a friend (IMHO).

I will not post the article in question as it is a negative article but drop me a PM if you want the link.

Here is a quote that covers what I consider to be the only exception to the oxidation rule.
We all know the BS (my opinion) surrounding DAAP and I suspect those of us that have been around for a minute or two know how delicious diacetyl soup actually is. Now a few flavours contain acetoin (the first A in DAAP) (sorry @Steampugs I mistakenly quoted acetyl propionyl rather than acetoin in our chat the other night).

Anyhoo here is a quote from the study and my basis for saying that there is a case where oxidation is a good thing - always open to having my mind changed.

… acetoin generates diacetyl in e-liquids. We found diacetyl formation in all acetoin-containing e-liquids, but it is not an acetoin-contaminant. Diacetyl concentrations were proportional to acetoin content, grew over time, and formation was accelerated by nicotine. E-liquids stored for up to 18 months contained significant diacetyl, and reduced acetoin levels, showing that acetoin is a long-term diacetyl source.

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Excuse me for not nowing Anything about Acetoin or diacetyl, after smoking for 42 years really thought anything was better, although I have been recently trying to avoid flavors with caution marks.
So what I think I’m seeing here is steeping reduces Acetoin but increases diacetyl in said flavors ?

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Correct @Rocky02852 just on a side note cigs contain up to 750x more diacetyl in a single smoke than a bottle of DAAP custard.

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Ok good, ‘cause I don’t like custard :wink:
But is diacetyl better than Acetoin ? Just asking ‘cause I don’t have a clue :man_shrugging:

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I think the best way to describe DAAP is it is an avoidable unknown - the reason i say this is many experts have said that it may cause xyz but none have ever proved that it is actually harmful so if you wish to minimise your risk even further then maybe avoiding DAAP flavours is the course for you - if you don’t mind a possible slight risk increase and put flavour over any perceived risk then DAAP soup is delicious.

It comes down to a personal choice and something you have to weigh up for yourself.

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Here! Here! Nothing beats the goodness provided by my friend DAAP​:drooling_face::drooling_face::drooling_face::drooling_face:

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Yeah, I know some of the flavors I have ordered are V2 vs V1 because somewhere I heard that some shit is bad for you, some others, yeah I gotta have the good shit regardless, was just trying to make sense out of your original post is all, ‘caus like I said I have no clue on all that daap shit👌

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GIVE ME THOSE DICK TONES…
Or whatever it is :man_shrugging:

I blame you considerably @woftam for feeding me false information, if I develop dicktoneititus the blame will fall squarely on your shoulders :point_right:
I could well die of buttery goodness. :drooling_face:

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Never mind, carry on

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I think this fact right here ^^^^^^ really shuts DOWN the popcorn lung vaping debate. If cigarettes have that much more diacetyl than ejuice, by VIRTUE of that, one would EXPECT that every smoker, would SURELY have popcorn lung, right ?

:stuck_out_tongue:

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I have tested cap vc1 with the GC and I can absolutely say that it it vapeable after a short settle time and while vapeable it is a little different to a cap vc1 mix that is a few months old (expected).

I am talking about a relatively heavy cap vc1 mix (normally I wait for 2 months) and it is hard to quantify where it is in that time after the GC - I would by taste say it is the same as a 4-5 week rest.

Every other custard (including lighter vc1 mixes) are good to go almost immediately - to draw an immediate comparison

Fa Custard Premium contains
2.54% Diacetyl Cas 431-03-8 is ready right away

Cap VC 1 contains
1-3% PENTANEDIONE,2,3 (ACETYL PROPIONYL) #205 Cas 600-14-6 is vapeable right away but does continue to develop a little after mixing

I have put this down to the possible oxidation of AP to Diacetyl. Which is quite possibly 100% wrong lol

That said a thoroughly GC mixed Cap VC 1 is streets ahead of fresh mixed and hand shaken VC1 which for me is unvapeable.

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Just to clear up the AP / A irregularity I have been doing some more reading (lord it is dry if ever i can’t sleep I know what to look at) but>

Acetyl Propionyl and Acetoin are the substitutes that arrived after the initial scare of Diacetyl and research suggests that these chemicals also can contain or convert themselves to Diacetyl

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I agree 100% that it is nicotine that is the catalyst

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And that right there is the whole problem. No one has any proof of these things being bad for you at the levels we use them at.

To me, it’s no different than living in a major metropolitan area. A simple walk outside provides the same level of risk in a shit ton of cases. Pollution (air or ground), waste in streams, Detroit tap water (ok, so you don’t have to leave the house for that one! lol)…

Sorry… The whole thing just sets me off.
(it’s not directed at you.)
Unfounded fears are “fine”, as long as the individual is the only one affected. But when the entire industry shifted thanks to unfounded opinion, it left a lasting bad taste in my mouth (figuratively and literally] [with some of the flavors lost/that were replaced by]).
/rant off

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Like Woftam stated, I’ve done a handful of mixes now, I only ever vape Custards/desserts/ice-creams etc, and I use Cap V1 95% of the time, and in a lot of the recipes I use, so…I did do one Custard heavy mix, and although the other mixes I did were 100% what I would call ‘properly steeped’, the Custard heavy mix, like @woftam said, was at about the 3 or 4 week steep stage, I usually leave a mix like that for 6 to 8 weeks to fully mature, however…that was the day after mixing, weirdly…for me anyway, the full maturation appears to have also been accelerated, 2 or 3 days later and what I am vaping now tastes to me the same as a 2 month steep…just an observation. Custard V1 was the ‘sceptical’ question for me, and the bench mark, 48hrs instead of 2 months is a phenomenal achievement…also, that mix was done with a tepid 70/30 pre-mix as a test.

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Yeah I’m out of separate VG and PG now, I’ve just got my gallon of 70/30 premix left, but if I get time this weekend I’ll do the same custard again but heated. Custards a funny animal, it’s completely subjective and devisive with vapers, and is almost definitely the longest steeper, to get that ‘buttery’ mouthfeel can take a couple of months, without heating I’m getting it with the GC after 2 days, with heat… probably a day.
It’s Perfect as it is, you don’t have to change a damn thing brother :ok_hand::ok_hand:

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I know that feeling @anon96069639.

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I have to say that over the last week or so I have been playing with a bunch of one-shots from Flavour Chaser and after mixing and blitzing with the GC they are what I would expect from a fully “steeped” juice, however I do find that after a few days, they are even better, so for me, a fully developed recipe could still benefit from a few days of rest.
Obviously a mix being developed is immediately ready for the tweaking of flavours.
One of my own recipes that previously had taken months to mature, was immediately amazing, but a few days later was at full maturation.
This is indeed the best thing since sliced bread :grin:

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Well that’s some pretty powerful results @Tworrs.

@anon96069639, I’m about 100% sure you mentioned this somewhere, but I cannot find it. Didn’t you recommend a days rest after homogenizing ?

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Roger that. I"m sure it depends on the flavors, but even if there was a days wait, to take something from a month or more of steeping, down to a day or less, cannot be overstated.

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