Oxidation Friend or Foe

Continuing the discussion from Homogenizer Project - Another Step Forward:

I wanted to answer this in a new topic and it would send the og topic off the rails.

Oxidation is generally the foe of e-liquid, however, there is one particular circumstance where I feel it works as a friend (IMHO).

I will not post the article in question as it is a negative article but drop me a PM if you want the link.

Here is a quote that covers what I consider to be the only exception to the oxidation rule.
We all know the BS (my opinion) surrounding DAAP and I suspect those of us that have been around for a minute or two know how delicious diacetyl soup actually is. Now a few flavours contain acetoin (the first A in DAAP) (sorry @Steampugs I mistakenly quoted acetyl propionyl rather than acetoin in our chat the other night).

Anyhoo here is a quote from the study and my basis for saying that there is a case where oxidation is a good thing - always open to having my mind changed.

… acetoin generates diacetyl in e-liquids. We found diacetyl formation in all acetoin-containing e-liquids, but it is not an acetoin-contaminant. Diacetyl concentrations were proportional to acetoin content, grew over time, and formation was accelerated by nicotine. E-liquids stored for up to 18 months contained significant diacetyl, and reduced acetoin levels, showing that acetoin is a long-term diacetyl source.

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Excuse me for not nowing Anything about Acetoin or diacetyl, after smoking for 42 years really thought anything was better, although I have been recently trying to avoid flavors with caution marks.
So what I think I’m seeing here is steeping reduces Acetoin but increases diacetyl in said flavors ?

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Correct @Rocky02852 just on a side note cigs contain up to 750x more diacetyl in a single smoke than a bottle of DAAP custard.

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Ok good, ‘cause I don’t like custard :wink:
But is diacetyl better than Acetoin ? Just asking ‘cause I don’t have a clue :man_shrugging:

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I think the best way to describe DAAP is it is an avoidable unknown - the reason i say this is many experts have said that it may cause xyz but none have ever proved that it is actually harmful so if you wish to minimise your risk even further then maybe avoiding DAAP flavours is the course for you - if you don’t mind a possible slight risk increase and put flavour over any perceived risk then DAAP soup is delicious.

It comes down to a personal choice and something you have to weigh up for yourself.

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Here! Here! Nothing beats the goodness provided by my friend DAAP​:drooling_face::drooling_face::drooling_face::drooling_face:

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Yeah, I know some of the flavors I have ordered are V2 vs V1 because somewhere I heard that some shit is bad for you, some others, yeah I gotta have the good shit regardless, was just trying to make sense out of your original post is all, ‘caus like I said I have no clue on all that daap shit👌

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GIVE ME THOSE DICK TONES…
Or whatever it is :man_shrugging:

I blame you considerably @woftam for feeding me false information, if I develop dicktoneititus the blame will fall squarely on your shoulders :point_right:
I could well die of buttery goodness. :drooling_face:

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Never mind, carry on

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I think this fact right here ^^^^^^ really shuts DOWN the popcorn lung vaping debate. If cigarettes have that much more diacetyl than ejuice, by VIRTUE of that, one would EXPECT that every smoker, would SURELY have popcorn lung, right ?

:stuck_out_tongue:

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Thanks for creating a separate topic and I was contemplating doing the same with a related, but different topic. That would be all the negativity, fearmongering, and authoritarian mindsets surrounding mixing.

As always, I begin with the fact that I am not a chemist. I have entry level rudimentary training though I think most know me as a relentless researcher when I want to know something.

I recall reading the article and about 100 pages of a 3 or 400 page study if it is not he same. I quit reading because my layman’s impression was that it or they were hit pieces and fearmongering. Like you, I don’t have any concerns about vaping DAAP and you are correct… no one has proven them to be harmful. Smells like bullshit to me.

I don’t particularly like custards and there are 2 that I can not vape in any quantity. Cap and TFA. I can’t test them because what I am tasting can’t possibly be what others are. But, I have at least 20 people that have told me that with the homogenizer they are vape ready and taste the same as if they were a month or 2 old. With it we are not oxidizing the mix but when nic is added, it will begin oxidizing. I don’t know how to square that. If the oxidation, be it additive of a molecule or reductive oxidation where a loss of structure occurs, they should not taste the same.

My main concern with this though are people that believe in some time based magical transformation of the chemical structure of our liquids that can only occur over long periods of time. My belief is that this defies the laws of nature (physics). I can be wrong and often am, but my belief is that chemical reactions occur instantaneously when in contact with others. I reject the premise that our flavor materials increase in strength over time. Perception, yes, physics, I don’t think so. Regardless it seems a our goal is achieving a stable mixture and anything else is a waste of time.

I have great respect for your knowledge of chemistry and as a mixer and obviously far surpasses mine.

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I have tested cap vc1 with the GC and I can absolutely say that it it vapeable after a short settle time and while vapeable it is a little different to a cap vc1 mix that is a few months old (expected).

I am talking about a relatively heavy cap vc1 mix (normally I wait for 2 months) and it is hard to quantify where it is in that time after the GC - I would by taste say it is the same as a 4-5 week rest.

Every other custard (including lighter vc1 mixes) are good to go almost immediately - to draw an immediate comparison

Fa Custard Premium contains
2.54% Diacetyl Cas 431-03-8 is ready right away

Cap VC 1 contains
1-3% PENTANEDIONE,2,3 (ACETYL PROPIONYL) #205 Cas 600-14-6 is vapeable right away but does continue to develop a little after mixing

I have put this down to the possible oxidation of AP to Diacetyl. Which is quite possibly 100% wrong lol

That said a thoroughly GC mixed Cap VC 1 is streets ahead of fresh mixed and hand shaken VC1 which for me is unvapeable.

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Just to clear up the AP / A irregularity I have been doing some more reading (lord it is dry if ever i can’t sleep I know what to look at) but>

Acetyl Propionyl and Acetoin are the substitutes that arrived after the initial scare of Diacetyl and research suggests that these chemicals also can contain or convert themselves to Diacetyl

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Thanks. Tell me if I’m not correct but it seems to me that the nicotine oxidation is the real difference and not the flavor materials.

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I agree 100% that it is nicotine that is the catalyst

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And that right there is the whole problem. No one has any proof of these things being bad for you at the levels we use them at.

To me, it’s no different than living in a major metropolitan area. A simple walk outside provides the same level of risk in a shit ton of cases. Pollution (air or ground), waste in streams, Detroit tap water (ok, so you don’t have to leave the house for that one! lol)…

Sorry… The whole thing just sets me off.
(it’s not directed at you.)
Unfounded fears are “fine”, as long as the individual is the only one affected. But when the entire industry shifted thanks to unfounded opinion, it left a lasting bad taste in my mouth (figuratively and literally] [with some of the flavors lost/that were replaced by]).
/rant off

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Like Woftam stated, I’ve done a handful of mixes now, I only ever vape Custards/desserts/ice-creams etc, and I use Cap V1 95% of the time, and in a lot of the recipes I use, so…I did do one Custard heavy mix, and although the other mixes I did were 100% what I would call ‘properly steeped’, the Custard heavy mix, like @woftam said, was at about the 3 or 4 week steep stage, I usually leave a mix like that for 6 to 8 weeks to fully mature, however…that was the day after mixing, weirdly…for me anyway, the full maturation appears to have also been accelerated, 2 or 3 days later and what I am vaping now tastes to me the same as a 2 month steep…just an observation. Custard V1 was the ‘sceptical’ question for me, and the bench mark, 48hrs instead of 2 months is a phenomenal achievement…also, that mix was done with a tepid 70/30 pre-mix as a test.

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My thing with Cap VC and TFA in general I think is not the custard ingredients and is instead the vanilla they use. I’m a pepper taster though with Cap VC I get a strong foul taste that’s hard to describe. I actually like Wonder Flavours custards and have always liked FA (different) though as yet have not purchased the “premium.” I also use FLV in small quantities and have tried some others.

What is going on with the device is multi part but particle reduction is taking place. I lost count of the number of different mixing chambers and exit ports I built and it was not until I made the current version with a single row exit holes that I was satisfied with the flow through and overall result for ejuice. Damned near all you see are slots or emulsifying heads with multiple rows of tiny holes. Basically what I have is a mix chamber where ejuice enters and has no place to go. Its being smashed by the pressure buildup and high shear effect between the rotor and tube wall until it finds its way out the ports.

Another thing necessary is the use of heat which makes the VG much more soluble. Viscosity (thickness) is reduced while solubility increases allowing the flavor materials to become homogeneous i.e. the same throughout the mix. In the case of whatever chemicals used in the custards using a different mix head port configuration could reduce the particle sizes even more where it could theoretically eliminate that extra day. I made one and did not like its overall performance but if I was making oil and water salad dressing that would be a different story.

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Yeah I’m out of separate VG and PG now, I’ve just got my gallon of 70/30 premix left, but if I get time this weekend I’ll do the same custard again but heated. Custards a funny animal, it’s completely subjective and devisive with vapers, and is almost definitely the longest steeper, to get that ‘buttery’ mouthfeel can take a couple of months, without heating I’m getting it with the GC after 2 days, with heat… probably a day.
It’s Perfect as it is, you don’t have to change a damn thing brother :ok_hand::ok_hand:

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I know that feeling @guitarded.

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