Sous Vide 101 (and 202, 303)


#61

Since you’ve studied the physical properties of the compounds we use in vaping, maybe you know this one too…

Why is PG a ‘better carrier of flavors’ than VG? Is it particle size, lack of flavor compared to VG, not inert, or is that statement just another trip to Uncle Aesop’s rocking chair?


#62

I’m not a chemist and only have a rudimentary knowledge (1 semester). I am a Purdue University alum and had an opportunity to have a conversation with a chemical professor about this stuff. I thought he was going to die laughing and it truly was embarrassing but he was kind and informative and most importantly he was not at all adverse to vaping and had a positive attitude towards it. Most of the conversation focused on the use of lab equipment.

But this is not rocket science. PG is a good solvent and remains stable. I don’t think we have to look any further than the fact that the chemists (flavorists) in the vast majority of cases use PG based flavorings because the chemicals used to formulate them are miscible in PG and remain stable with long shelf lives.

We all know the disasters of VG based flavors where other chems are used in attempts to mix with VG.
Distilled water, alcohol, PDO, etc. I don’t want to use any of them and don’t believe they work very well, if at all.

Again quoting the owner/ chemist/ flavorist of FlavourArt, (I’ll find the video) VG is not a good solvent and the flavoring continually separates from it.


#63

These?


#64

Trying to gain a clearer understanding, or possibly clarification here… :wink:

Agreed (without a doubt).

I must have missed folks who’ve evidently said this of VG. (in which case I would agree)

But if it’s in relation to the ones often referred to as “up-steepers”, then yes, I have seen the occasional flavor which gives the impression of getting stronger as time passes. (Usually with MF, but not always. Some coffees etc…)

Wasn’t sure if you were referring to the bottle (of flavor) before it’s mixed, or the bottle (recipe) after it’s been mixed. :thinking:

It could appear as “getting stronger” as the (for instance) extract (which takes longer to develop in the first place) continues to permeate the VG. :wink:
For those who have lived by the “use no heat” mantra… This could seem like a ‘miracle transformation’ chuckles :wink:

It may be I’m a bit thick this morning (still waking up), so apologies if I’ve missed the plot.


#65

Yep those are the video’s. The quote with Massimo (owner) is at about 37:40. The video’s are informative as a whole. Knowing high shear equipment somewhat, I spotted it in use in several places in their facility.


#66

Well, rudimentary knowledge combined with the desire/effort to enhance your knowledge is more than good enough for me. I’m obviously also not a chemist but I understand chemistry (at least the concept and role it plays in, well, everything) so I comprehend what you are saying. I am sort of true to the Missouri state motto (show me), and really like to be able to create a full mental picture of things in order to have a good comprehension. That said, I totally get what you are saying about the properties of these substances and how they interact, etc. Having that mental picture allows me to absorb what you are explaining and helps cement my belief that mechanical handling will accomplish the same thing as Clock Magic, so I am 100% in with this dealie.

It’s a shame that PG is so thin because I would just skip VG altogether, and maybe if I get a suitable sqounker I might actually make a few all PG mixes and see how it goes someday. Anyone here tried it? I’m sure people have, albeit not in the context of mech maturation. Mech maturation? Sounds like a robot growing up.


#67

We are definitely on the same wavelength and somehow I must have some Missourian in the woodpile because the number of times I have said essentially “show me” is incalculable. Whether mechanical, electrical, or chemical I have to visualize things. I guess i could go off on a philosophy of science tangent, which was part of my education, but that’s a hole I don’t want to go down. But I fucken hate magical thinking. Give me observable, measurable, and repeatable data.

I appreciate how you have clarified what I have attempted to convey.


#68

Many of those times for me were followed by a slap to the face, but hey, I wanted her to show me.

But really though, that’s why I ask so many questions, and sometimes redundantly even. I just need to see all the parts in order to understand the sum. If one part doesn’t make sense I will ask until it does, so be warned…


#69

Giving an “impression” is wholly different than a physical change. “upsteeping?” See below.

Same answer. An appearance is wholly different. What occurs physically and chemically during the “steeping” and “upsteeping” process? Fish made me a honorary Missourian :rofl: Show me.

I only have 4 true extracts.Two are MF. Despite rigid claims that they have to “steep” for 30 days, I vape them the same or next day. By “longer to develop” I truly don’t know what you mean.

MF flavorings are multi use products designed to be used immediately. Ditto for many others.

What I meant was in the flavoring bottle but see no difference in terms of the subject of “getting stronger” “upsteeping” whatever that supposedly is. Perception, appearance, I can agree with. Getting stronger, which is clearly what people are being told, (not necessarily by you) I can not.

We are discussing using sous vide equipment and heat to facilitate vape ready mixes. There is no plot.


#70

Right. Because you don’t use the same process they do! :wink:

Those that use ‘traditional’ “throw it in the cupboard and forget about it” method would be quite likely to observe that it’s an “upsteeper”. As it gets stronger (the more it permeates the VG) the longer it sits.

Those who use the “mag mixer” alone method would likely see results sooner than the group above, and would be more apt to balk about it doesn’t need that long etc.

Those who use an USC with heat would (in my estimation/experience) likely be saying things along the lines of “that’s good within a week” (for extracts, since I’m trying to keep a time-line point). (2-3 days if using normal flavors, amount of alcohol in the base dependant).

And then lastly, folks like yourself, using a “professional-equipment approach” can see results practically instantly (allowing for differences in throat-hit preference of course).

As I’ve tried to illustrate above, I think that it’s more that folks (in various forums/platforms) don’t share the enthusiasm for understanding such things as we do. As a result, their view can come off as somewhat myopic to those who “have to” (or enjoy) digging deeper into the science of it all. Not everyone enjoys “the little mysteries of life”, and as such, some tend to simply not care, others don’t want to be bothered with such intricacies, and others still are just “give me an easy way that works”.

When I said plot earlier, I was using it in the British sense of “I’m not sure I follow”, not the typical American sense of “there’s something under-handed afoot”. :laughing:


#71

I think if a sort of all-in-one high shear/heat device was available to the home mixer (size and cost), a lot of the resistance would fade as more users begin to report no latency mixing results and accolades. I can see why most people prefer the hide and seek time steep methods, because they do work. But get something out to the masses and this will take a firm root, IMHO.


#72

We’ve known each other for quite awhile now, online of course. So I was trying to get a rise out of you about the “plot.” But during this whole time you have never seen me tell anyone that they have to do something. I’m simply offering solutions and making observations about claims that others rigidly make about the so called steeping process. Some people, including you, have freely given me good information and camaraderie that I appreciate and I attempt to reciprocate.

While I won’t, given 30 minutes I could find 100 posts chanting not only unsubstantiated “steeping” claims but a bunch of stone age voodoo bullshit that I personally think is harmful to vaping; particularly those that want to learn DIY. It is clearly obvious that I find some of it offensive and there is a history of this. There are people that do not want me telling these things.

A long time ago I stated the dangers to you and a few others concerning passing on the information I have learned. Specifically I stated that there is no way that I could do that. I do not want to make anyone feel discouraged from DIY because they feel they need this equipment to make good juice. I have said the opposite many times. Clearly, this equipment can be very expensive and beyond the means of a lot of people. If I did I really would do harm instead of being accused of it from what are clearly sales agents masquerading as “forums” that push aside anyone that doesn’t toe their line. This forum is not one of them.

You know that I have worked for nearly a year to develop a low cost mixing device that could be made available to DIYers. Coming soon is all I can say except that I have had setback after setback including being very sick. Machine tooling and materials are “out for delivery” today so I can get back to it. However, this device is designed to to be operated at a specific speed and at the specified temperature. If people are going to 'know better" then I am wasting a hell of a lot of time and money. Of course, no one asked me to do this.The people who chant the no heat mantra and the rest of the voodoo shit admittedly make me pause. I have nothing to gain nor intent to gain.

Nevertheless, not a single person has offered up anything to answer what they believe is happening in the so called steeping process or the claims that “you’re destroying the molecules” when using heat. Horseshit.


#73

When I was new to vaping and to DIY mixing, all I ever heard was that time aging was the only way to get mature juice. Examples given ran the gambit from “oxidation is required” to “time is required for the chemical process to occur” or simply “just because”, with no actual data presented or asked for. As such, I too spread plenty of that misinformation simply for lack of knowledge or voices like yours that show conclusively why that simply isn’t the only means possible of achieving it. So I am indeed guilty.

And that is one big reason why I am doubly interested in this research and data. Of course I have personal motives, as I didn’t even have enough patience to wait in the patience line when I was waiting to be born. But also, this resistance, or indifference, or simple all-out refusal to even consider this process reminds me of one of any conspiracies you could mention, from anti-vaping activists to political parties, you name it. When differing viewpoints are shouted down for no good reason, I want to find out why.


#74

Well… My fluorescent is still good, but sometimes you have to whack the starter to get it to fire. chuckles

Obviously that one went:

Of course. And I agree.

I’m sorry for being overly cautious. But lately watching folks go at each other over seriously piddly bullshit (not here) has kind of got me on my heels with respect to trying to make sure there’s not an unintended miscommunication.

Evidently doubly so amidst folks that I truly respect and appreciate. So…

No doubt, and I’m with you all the way.
But, you can’t change a closed mind, so most often anymore, I don’t bother (at least publicly).

Anyways, my fog (on what was trying to be said) has lifted, and sorry if I added to your confusion (of what I was thinking) or derailed things.


#75

No problems but its why I distance myself from those brainwashed nitwits and enjoy this forum where we can all have a good discussion even when we don’t agree.

I guess I suffer from oldmancrotchetyitis and the prognosis is dismal. But on the bright side I’ve got me an old fuckers discount card so now I’m somebody. :grin:

But seriousl;y this gives me the red ass sometimes because I had a hard time when I started vaping. I’m diabetic and on top of that artificial sweeteners make me pretty sick. Store bought juice was out though I tried some local B&M. Nasty and full of sweetener. I was stuck using flavorless. Then I found a place down your way called the Vape Mall where I could order unsweetened juices which helped but really weren’t very good. They sold flavorings which proved to be mostly Flavor West and I began mixing. That took me to ELR and I read all that bullshit.

Bottom line is this: I don’t think I’d still be alive if it wasn’t for vaping. I smoked for well over 50 years and it seems like damned near every week I have to carry someone’s box to their grave. I’m not out to destroy anyone’s belief system, I’d just like to help others quit smoking and make a contribution to the Art/hobby.


#76

The “only way”…and nothing brings out the naysayers more except for maybe one. Every new mixer gets told how heat “destroys the flavor molecules” and can not be used for ejuice making.

Since this thread is about using the Sous to heat and facilitate time reduction in mixes lets talk about the other “only way” and the purported harm that heat has on ejuice flavorings.

Does heat harm flavorings and if so at what specific temperature and what is the source and supporting information?

I like a cool vape and vape in temp control set at 420 F. If heat damaged flavorings how is it that I get a flavorful vape when the juice is vaporized by coils at 420?

Being diabetic I used flavorings for cooking long before vaping existed. No carbs, no calories, and no “if it tastes good you can’t have it.” If heat harmed extracts or artificial flavorings how could people make candy, hot drinks, and use it for cooking?

The closest thing to an answer I’ve ever gotten was that the flavors should be stored in a cool dark place. So does most every thing in our food pantry but I don’t make my favorite soups at room temp. Wouldn’t that be yummy.


#77

I wonder if this was because early DIY mixers killed the juice by heating with the nicotine already in it, and simply didn’t realize it was the nic that was the problem, not the flavorings.


#78

Exactly.:clap::clap::clap:


#79

Well, in the community’s defense, chemistry isn’t well understood at all by the average joe, so it’s very easy to take passed-down information like that as gospel. However, the DIY vaping community has begun to mature considerably, and now that there’s a better understanding of juice making, there’s no excuse for covering the eyes and ears anymore.


#80

I agree and have noticed that people are beginning to reject that nonsense. On a side note, these flavorings are great for cooking and drink making. I use 2 drops of FA Catalan Cream in my morning coffee and am hooked on it. The bartenders at my wife’s restaurant use them for drink flavorings. I recall when I talked about this “over there” and Vapey made ice cream with Vanilla Custard for her kids and said they loved it. I can see maybe using it in a sous bag with certain foods just like a rub and I bet it would be delicious.