Sous Vide 101 (and 202, 303)


#202

Man that’s great. I don’t think its necessary at all and could be detrimental. When I was using stirrers I did this using heat and pretty high speed with an overhead stirrer. By leaving out the flavors I was attempting to thin the PG/ VG without injecting any air into the flavors. I did use a bearing device in a large canning jar and lid so to eliminate introduction of any new air. The point is that I was attempting to create a shearing effect with a blade stirrer and not have to be concerned about aeration. Nope, a blade is not going to create a shear effect and it did inject air into the PG?VG mix. Bad Idea…

OXIDATION.
I thought without nicotine and flavors no bad effects would occur. But I did not consider the effects of aerating PG. And yes I’ve gone on and on about oxidized nicotine in turn oxidizing flavors. Here’s what Satan aka DOW Chemical has to say:

Propylene glycols are hygroscopic liquids and efficient humectants. As such, they attract and hold water when exposed to the environment. Propylene glycols are sensitive to
oxidizing agents, e.g., the oxygen in air, especially when exposed to elevated temperatures and/or sunlight (ultraviolet light). Therefore, propylene glycols may degrade in the presence of air/oxygen, resulting in an increase of the acid content, color, ultraviolet light absorption, odor and a decrease of purity (assay)… Depending on the individual product and conditions,
various degradation products can be formed, such as aldehydes, ketones, acids and dioxolanes.

Study Conclusions: (theirs)

Propylene glycols are susceptible to sunlight (UV) catalyzed (partial) oxidation in the presence of air. Such partial degradation can negatively impact product quality, evidenced by increased acid, aldehyde, carbonyl and water contents, and product odor.


#203

I did not notice any bad effects but nonetheless abandoned this practice. The article recommends storage at below 40C/104 F and also in opaque containers. UV and water vapor absorption are the enemies here.


#204

Just by the definition it’s easy to understand why they are used in lotions and creams. Holding/absorbing moisture is a highly desirable effect in the cosmetics industry. Interesting stuff- almost too much information to ‘absorb’, (ha, I kill me)

So a question I should have considered but hadn’t before… do smaller batches require less time at 60c? I’ve only done 100ml mixers, but will be doing 30ml when the WF samples arrive.


#205

I honestly don’t know. I did get the SV yesterday and intend to experiment but just now opened the box and my wife is cooking steaks.

I think a good way to tell a finished mix is to hold a bottle up to light and look for separation. Real scientific huh?:grin:


#206

That’s worth waiting for the lab testing, no doubt.

Well, humor aside, that doesn’t work for me. When I used to mix with time, I could see no naked-eye evidence of separation, yet that time maturity was still needed. I can’t see on the molecular lever so I’m just plain old sticking to the current method.

The WF box just today finally began drifting through the system. Label created on 12/24 but it sat still all that time until this morning. Poo.


#207

I got my NR flavors and salts yesterday also so now I can quit bitching.:joy: The SV is really nice, nice enough that she grabbed it and put steaks in it. It came up to temp really quickly and is holding steady.

Withe the result you got I’d be reluctant to change anything and if I did it would be in small increments downward time wise. With the rotor stator I heat about 30 minutes but that applies tremendous force. But yeah, its hard to tell anything by eye. Where did I put my electron microscope and spectral analysis equipment? Damn, you wouldn’t think those could be misplaced.:laughing::laughing:


#208

I won’t stop. In fact, I may just post frequent updates and whines.

@Sprkslfly, I know you appreciated the last time I chronicled a delivery in progress, in great detail!

Why the hell did I go to the US then back to Canada???


#209

Must we play Musical Countries with my little vials of joy? :rage:

image


#210

I’m finally getting some personal time and the mother in law is making an astonishing recovery. I honestly did not expect it.

When we buy concentrated flavors they are dissolved in solvent which is usually PG. So it seems to me that adding other flavoring mixes requires nothing more than adequately combining them. Personally I don’t think much is required other than gentle agitation and think that very little time is actually required for the solvents to dissolve the flavorings and combine. However, there are added ingredients like emulsifiers (only one example) which facilitate this and I think are there to also aid dispersion. I think ethyl alcohol also falls into this category but should be a separate discussion.The chemical reactions happen, but but I have no idea what they are. I believe evaporation and gassing does occur.

I also think that if we were just mixing in PG the term “steeping” would not exist in relation to ejuice making, whatever the hell “steeping” means. I don’t recall having ever seen a word that implies so many things and “rules,” none of which stand up to any scrutiny. To me by any name it is the process required to arrive at a finished ejuice mix. There are too many chemicals and variables in the chemistry which is exactly why I want to rely on the chemists and developers of these flavorings. Other than some common additives, I don’t want to fuck with a product developed by an experienced chemist/flavorist. I’ve read enough MSDS sheets to know that I don’t know shit about the chemistry or chemical reactions taking place. What I do know is that I can make a finished ejuice mix in very little time.

All that stuff drifts into magical thinking and false expertise which I personally abhor.

What caused me to question you was not to be argumentative, rather I [mis]understood you to mean that that an “aged” concentrate mix (stone) would be ready to vape when combined with PG/VG. If that were the case then any bottle of concentrate would also.


#211

So how were the steaks @mrpipes?


#212

They were great. I’m really glad I bought this thing. My wife works a crazy schedule and I’m home all the time. I hate trying to cook for myself (a) because I’m a terrible cook, and (b) I get busy outside or in my shop and lose track of time when something is cooking. Being able to not have to watch a timer is a big plus. I can see using this a lot.

I’m probably going to fabricate a rack for putting bottles in where I won’t have to use bags. I have a stainless mesh basket for use in my usc which I might be able to make work though. Probably mix/experiment a little tomorrow. I plan to make two identical mixes and use the homogenizer/mix for a control. Then use the SV in one hour increments and test against the homogenizer control mix using identical drippers. Be interesting and fun.


#213

Still reading and getting up to speed, but this cracked me right the fuck up!!! LMAO


#214

Probably hiding behind the duece-and-a-half by the barn if my hunch is right. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:


#215

Wonderful to hear that! Hopefully everyone concerned can gather a deep breath now, as nothing puts things on full tilt like a loved one in the hospital.

That was basically my experience. Though it’s literally the only stone I have/mix so far. So I’m still very much a newbie in this domain. chuckles

And you know a great deal more than I on that front! lol

I know. I have just been struggling with getting concise thoughts out lately, and it frustrates me. At which point I sometimes go overboard trying to make sure I’m clear. Either way, no offense taken. I’d rather be open to learning something…


#216

Great. We’ve had some really great conversations and I value and learn from them. My take for a long time now is that the problem with DIY mixing is not in chemical reactions but in overcoming the problems of mixing them with VG where they can react and combine. Thus my claim that the so called "steeping " consists of “dispersal of the flavors at the micron level” within the mix. With the use of heat and mechanical force this can be quickly accomplished. The Sous Vide method being explored here once again confirms this.

This brings me to the role of alcohol. These are questions and observations. Nothing more.

For the most part I don’t like flavorings with alcohol but there are exceptions. MF Lemon is claimed to have up to 5% EA claimed by them as necessary for their extraction process. I don’t taste it and consider it a really good flavoring. Others are harsh which seems to diminish. Does it evaporate, or is it diluted and concealed by flavorings as they combine? Or is it a combination? I think its pretty clear that EA is necessary to make some flavorings.

We’ve probably all read methods where EA is used by mixers to thin high VG mixes. It does. So will distilled water. But that 100 proof Vodka used is 50% distilled water. Both PG and VG are hygroscopic i.e they attract and hold water, plus EA is fully miscible with water i.e. 80 proof, 90 proof, 100- 190 proof etc. MSDS reference CAS # and show the contents as ethyl alcohol and water.

However, the flavor ingredients used in making concentrates are not “water logging” as stated in the FA video along with his statement that the flavorings will constantly separate from VG.

While I think EA is necessary as a solvent in making certain flavoring, I also think that people have been misled in order to produce and sell VG based flavorings by the use of EA and PDO and other chemicals to make “PG free” products. The EA content is very high in some of these which is a rant that I really don’t want to revisit. Even if the EA fully evaporated I think that the water would retain the EA taste. I think the strange funky aftertaste I get from them is that.

Input please.


#217

While my testing has been rather limited, to just one batch of 12 recipes, the results I have measured against myself and two other humans has shown to me that you are 100% correct in your assessment. I am neither a scientist or a professional, but my own anecdotal evidence suggests I have accomplished identical results with two separate maturation processes. The hours old mixes were indistinguishable from month aged counterparts with the exception of the color due to the oxidation of the nic in the shelved mixes. (And FTR the blind testers were not able to see the juices as I had dripped them on the cotton prior to them testing, so there could be no visual bias or inclinations from them).

I will soon move to new territory, as the next round of mixing will not have an aged counterpart to compare to, and I have no mass spec or similar to analyze the chemical composition. However, I am not afraid of this; my first results have shown me enough to be confident that the Wonder Flavor SF tests will be as accurate to the intended profile as aged maturation methodology. This is, again, exciting. Even when I ordered them, I was still of the mindset that I would need a month before I could try them out. That’s now been reduced to near real-time. What more can I say? I wish I had more technical input to share and enrich the discussion, but I don’t.

I know this was intended for @Sprkslfly, so I apologize for responding in front of him. But this is a great thread that has really changed my DIY philosophy and enjoyment, and I thank everyone for all the information and opinions so far. Without them, I wouldn’t have had the push I needed to learn this great method.

I am trying another chuck roast this weekend or at least soon. Last time was 24 hours. It was great but I am going 2c higher and 12 hours longer this time. Looking very forward to that as well… I love how this SV is equally proper for 3M DIY as it is for sparkling cooking.


#218

Oh no. I meant input from anyone. I’ve noted the read count as pretty high on this thread and other methodology topics preceding it. You’ve started a good one.


#219

Well, it’s in the US now but hopscotching about fairly close to the border still. It may just jump back home again yet… Hope it drifts further south and west soon. Yes, I know you are all fascinated and captivated.


#220

I’ll be right with you on the wonder flavors wagon soon hopefully, my brothers duns# should show up sometime over the next 3 weeks or so, and the next shipping date according to the wonder flavors website is February 4th. That is also when I will be getting my new nic so I will start using heat in mixes too then as well. Next time I mix I will be making a few of my “long steep” recipes so that I can use them as a control to test this all out for myself.


#221

I got the DUNS# as soon as I registered the LLC on the site, there was no delay at all. That’s odd.