Let's talk TC (Temperature Control)

#1

Carry over from the Vape Mail thread, figured TC should have it’s own thread. No @Steampugs, TC doesn’t stand for Touching Curlies…sorry brother :grin:

Lot’s of real knowledgeable people in regards to TC so share what works for you and your favorite devices for TC. We can get DNA’s out of the way, pretty much regarded by most as the TC benchmark but if you have a differing opinion then please share.

For myself I gravitated towards TC as I use to have the habit of letting my tank run dry while I work. Instead of refilling I would think…hmmmm, need to finish this first then I will refill then forget, take another hit and uggghhh, dry hit from hell. I am so dense I would do it again, I pretty much TC so I can save my esophagus from the fiery fury of dry hit. I really grew to love the consistency of a great TC vape though but vape in power mode a lot too, still get those dreaded dry hits though, I never learn…sigh.

The more we share the more we learn so have at it!

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Vape Mail! 2018
Vape Mail! 2018
#2

Really interesting discussion on TC here, maybe we should start a thread? I went ahead and tested an atty with a 0.16 ohm build first on a DNA250 mod, read right, then the N1, Cylon and Vapecige Creator IM200 and they all clocked on at exactly 0.16. Funny thing is my POS Coilmaster 521 tab measured it at 0.17…lol

I do love the Vaptio N1 Pro, I think it is a great mod and still use it from time to time in 2 battery mode. What did you think of the N1 the short time you have it @Sprkslfly? Love the Cylon, just bought the tarnish but @mrpipes is right, runs hot, better in TCR.

Hey @Jim22 which Vapecige mod borrowed some for there chip after the DNA75C? I am very tempted to buy the Creator DNA75C after my review of the Therion with the same board, love that chip and the dual battery setup of the Creator would be sweet. I have the Creator IM200 and IM250, love the VV IM250 more, just haven’t been crazy about the IM200 but it is a good deal for around the $40 mark.

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#3

Sounds like a great idea to me. I’m strictly TC , so having a thread with a bunch of reviewers and some techie types would be awesome for people like me.

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#4

I’m actually amazed at the accuracy these devices produce. The difference between .16 and 17 is 5% and maybe less with truncated digits. Even if they used all 1% tolerance components, the tolerance stack would add up in a hurry. Given the difference between metals used for spools of coils, 10% variation on actual temperature of a device doesn’t surprise me much. Then and the complexity of heat transfer in more exotic coils and holy hell! Even Wire Wizard throws in a “confidence factor” regarding heat flux. I swear the heat of a good fart will vary my zero calibration on the miliohm meter. We’re working with resistances that have not conventionally been measured much.

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#5

I will get one started, I am guessing the hardware section?

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#6

TC thread is up Let's talk TC

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#7

Overall, very nice.
Absolutely loved the heatsink and pcb implementation!! Outer chassis was quite solid. A bit bulky (tall) to my liking, but actually fit really nicely in the hand (at least her 2 battery variant did).

The 3 battery variant (black) she sent is not nearly as comfortable, in fact, I’d say I dislike it.

Aside from the initial defect (shared between both of hers) with the substandard (quality/gauge) and poorly routed “sensing” wire…the switches do feel cheap.
My hunch is that, for the time that they are operating, they are going to do so extremely well. But they’ve obviously got some small quality control issues to address as they continue to grow.

I’m impressed with the accuracy of the reading of atty/coils, the quick response in firing, and what seems to be really strong (steady) power delivery. All of which are indicative of a quality chip, proper circuit design, a respectable firmware team. Now if they can nail down the production floor, and source a bit higher quality switch…

Good to hear…
What TCR do you two use on it for SS? (I’m normally at 130 on my Cuboid)

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#8

If I remember right I guessed the TCR was at 105 with the SS preset, would have to review back to my review but it’s getting late. At that it ran somewhere around 20ish hot, I think I settled in the 92ish range for TC. With the Cylon it still runs nicely in the SS preset, I just lower the temp. Was using it earlier around 400F with the SS preset where I normally like it at 430.

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#9

I was told the IM200 and the evil clown version (VTX?) screens were similar to the Vapecige dna75. I haven’t tried the customization software, but was told they are also similar to the dna software.

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#10

DJ has a handy TCR chart listing all wires @ http://www.djlsbvapes.com/different-wires/.

I checked both Cylons and agree with @Mjag review that Smoant seems to have set 105 as their standard SS setting. My Battlestars are also a little hot in SS setting. I’m guessing that Smoant did this because of (1) variance in wires from different sources and (2) to stay within their reputation as a fast hard hitting mod. They do hit hard and fast in power modes. But I prefer setting in TCR which allows a little finer tuning combined with raising temp settings. I always start at .00092 and rarely deviate. I buy 100 ft spools from advanced vape so all my coils are consistent.

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#11

Oh yeah, the screen on the IM200 uses the same style interface. Didn’t know they have a software, where is it available?

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#12

Great chart you posted, gonna bookmark it :+1:

I am with you, .00092 is where I am usually at, sometimes vary depending on mods but it is the standard to go by. Love me some AVS SS316 wire, almost the only thing I use now. Tried there SS430 but meh, no luck so far with it.

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#13

I’m always happy to see “unplanned matches” show up! The fact that you’re both showing identical preferences (92), using identical mods and wire is very reassuring!

I’ve had AVS on the radar for a looooong while now, but I’ve still got two more rolls of wire to get through before I need a refresh. >< lol

I’ve been using Lightning Vapes SS316 (26/36) Clapton coil, and also have a roll of Kbee Vapes SS316 fused clapton (2x26/32) to go through.
I haven’t used enough of the latter yet to really have an opinion, but I’ve gone through a full roll of the LV single clapton (as above), and that’s the one that’s “required” the 130 setting.

If memory serves, AVS is the company that uses Swiss SS aren’t they? (Yes, I’m operating from memory. Apologies in advance. :rofl: )

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#14

It gives 404 on their website now http://www.vapecige.com/?attachment_id=912 I have a copy that I downloaded in December. I could try to email it to you if you PM with your address.

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#15

I don’t know AVS’s source, but it is different and much better than anything else I’ve bought. It’s funny, I long ago left a customer comment that says the same thing; that I don’t know the reason but was done buying others. I have the same 26/36 clapton from LV and haven’t used it for quite awhile. I don’t know anything about kbee but is very likely Asian.

AVS wire comes very clean and well made. I use claptons and fused claptons. My favorites are 28/36 and 28x2-34 fused. I have some others like vertibraid 32x6 which is damn good in a dripper in WV but a little weird in TC. When he has sales the wire competes with anything.

I wondered about the 130 setting. As far as I know .00092 is the textbook TCR for 316 SS. But like @SmilingOgre said there are lots of variables that fall within spec tolerances. I’ve never adjusted SS TCR that high with 316. As far as SS factory settings, I don’t see how any maker could find one setting for 304, 316, 316 L, 317, and the 430.

Maybe this is part of the reason some users have trouble or don’t like TC? A little bit in TCR can make big differences.

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#16

Here’s what I know about. Not to imply I know “all” about TC.

There are HUGE differences in what different manufacturers provide and consider temperature control. I can’t help but believe some just claim it on the box with little or no qualification.

There are three main parameters for a DNA that can be adjusted, internal resistance, TCR, and thermal profile. For other boards there are only two parameters, resistance, and TCR. Internal resistance being a function of resistance but not accessible.

Adjusting the resistance or internal resistance by proxy is my preferred method of adjusting the temperature a mod will produce. By adjusting the “cold” or “room temp” or “baseline resistance” all further adjustments done by the mod should be linear, meaning 200°F will be just that as will 450°F. That is a big if. This assumes the mod does a good job of applying TCR changes via it’s firmware.

Adjusting the TCR value for a given temperature will work. If you alter the TCR and get 400°F actual from a setting of 400°F there is a high probability that that 200°F actual will not correspond to 200°F setting. By changing the TCR value you are actually changing the slope of the TCR. Now, here’s a caveat; a complex or exotic build might just have a different slope than simple wire. That is because much of the heating is done via conduction and convection. Steam engine produces TFR slopes for these builds that are not linear as well. Some coil configurations to not respond in a linear fashion. Let’s take it a step further. Steam Engine also provides a “TC precision” value. This is basically a confidence factor of how accurate the “TCR in vaping range” will be. The higher the number the more accurate. No reference to percentage of error even. We have all experienced using two identically specified strands of wire from two vendors and found we get slightly different resistances. DJlsb hints at some of these considerations when he publishes temperature achieved for single coil and then double coil. That is really only part of the story. I have not seen any reports on linearity of devices across the vaping temperature range.

All of this makes my head spin to be honest. I have relegated TC to these simple parameters. Can I get the mod to produce and hold close to 420°F? Can I get the mod to prevent dry hits? Will the mod provide a smooth even vape? Can I get the mod to stay in TC mode? If I can satisfy these parameters, I will use the mod in TC. If not I consider it to be a VW mod only.

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#17

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#18

Seriously, I’ve never wanted to go that deep into the DNA stuff and therefore know essentially nothing about it. But I do understand the basic principles. Instead I have reduced it down to the same basic functions as you based on the same basic viewpoints that there are so many variables that could or would change the slope that it all caused me to raise an eyebrow. In its most simple form, coils made from two materials would change everything . So I chose to use basic coils which would perform close to single wire builds.

One thing I consider as a big variable effect is the ability of the coil to cool down with regulation in mind. Then there is the factor of wicking and viscosity which I think also have an effect on temperature. So I chose smaller wires which still give me good vapor production and flavor and cool down quickly compared to large builds. Personally, I think they work better, for me at least. We know its not a thermostatic cutoff so the actual coil temp numbers seem relatively unimportant to me as long as I don’t get dry hits and a good regulated vape. So yeah, it is head spinning. I think I came along at a time like Sprks said when these makers were getting things worked out for mass users. Had I started earlier I probably would have went the DNA/escribe route.

Your explanation is excellent.

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#19

I thank you.

I really think one could take it to any depth one wanted to go. Considering atty size, mass of build, as you pointed out wicking, and on and on. I’ve changed my approach with TC lately. I like to get around .5Ω into a build. I can get plenty of heat, plenty of vapor, plenty of flavor and still not have to change out batteries constantly. Where that comes into play for me is dual coil atties. Pretty difficult to get .5Ω without a ton of bulk. I find in TC I’m either having to chain vape e.g. preheat the atty with multiple vapes or draw forever e.g. slow ramp, to get decent production in TC. I’ve went back to VW and kanthal for all my two coil atties. They just perform better at .5Ω or thereabout. Single coil atties will give me a decent response and perform just fine in TC. When it comes down to it, we are sensing the temperature of the vapor in the chimney. That’s a whole other bag of worms added on top of the physics involved in temperature stabilization of a coil. That’s just deeper than I want to dig for technical verification. At that point I’m just fine with seems like a nice for to me.

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#20

Interesting. The Cylon manual claims that .5 is best for Ti and SS. I have .48 in my new Kylin minis. Killer.

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