May not be the best place for it, but as @mrpipes noted, this may be a worthy discussion. Copied from another thread…
Which brings me to a request… can you tell me how I can get this to work? You, and others, seem so confident that some or all flavors respond differently at different wattages, but I have never been able to pull that trick off. I always just get the same old flavor (which is fine, actually). I suppose it is possible that my taste buds are fried like that one lone fry in the McDonald’s grease that fell out of the basket and languished for days at the bottom of the fryer. Or it is possible I am just unsophisticated when it comes to the subtleties and nuances of vape juices, or it is possible I am too stupid to notice. But I can’t ever get different notes to emerge in different setups or powers.
I did suggest this but I’m going to withhold my comments. I like a cool to warm vape and can’t take a high powered hot one. Same with ramp time. It appears to me that many want a really fast ramp up and I don’t. Interested in hearing others.
The question really is for @Sprkslfly and others so I don’t want to answer for him/them. I’m like you. I get varying intensities up to a point, but not what I’d call different “notes.” It may be mostly semantics.
In the sixties we all had or wanted a 400 HP fuel injected engine with a 4/11 positrack rear end, but the speed limit was 65 MPH. So I kind of view wattage in a similar light. Developed wattage is different than heat. I suspect that is what Sparks means when he refers to differing heats.
I did mean the question for anyone, including you, Wolfie, Sasquatch, or anyone else who wants to weigh in. I did also ask @Sprkslfly because he initiated the comment that I derived this from.
I have read it many times, but never understood it. While it may indeed be a matter of semantics; i.e. people actually mean intensity, but still I have read multiple times that a flavor changes over the power scale.
I am aware that gear plays a role in either flavor changing or flavor intensity, because of the chamber size, airflow design, airflow amount, deck size, etc. And I know that’s one reason Sparky asked what gear I was using. I’m just vastly curious how people can identify flavor notes being present and not at varying wattages, gear independent. Example I’ve seen… “The flavor really comes alive at 80w but fades at 120w.” Unless tested with different coils at those wattages, wouldn’t the build be the reason there?
I’m not the expert on this either since I vape mainly tobacco but I do know that tobacco doesn’t react well to extreme heat, neither do chocolate and coffee. You get an awful burnt taste with those.
I don’t get the subtleties that some people get either. I mean some people can even taste the wire or the cotton.
Both your responses seem to echo how I feel about it.
I may or may not be able to explain myself well enough, but the point I’m trying to convey is, are there physical or chemical changes in play that actually do change the flavor, or is it how the build reacts to power ranges that affect how the juice flavor is perceived? May not be an answerable question even. Because to my mind, it sounds like how the build affects the flavor is really what’s in play, rather than the juice itself responding to wattage. (My opinion is that the juice just don’t give a care, and external factors are what actually makes it seem to taste different).
*Oh, and let’s not forget that there may be unintended bias as well that tricks the mind into thinking there is a difference. Case in point- the wife’s insistence recently that the brand new juice was actually the aged juice when I did the SV/USC testing.
I really need to get a mod to move my other long winded post here… But I read (and replied to) existing posts first, so…
You’re probably right about “semantics” (in this case, terminology).
To me, heat is “all the same” (in regards to TC vs Power mode). Primarily from the standpoint of:
If you dial up a temp setting, you can turn around and switch to power mode, and then find the corresponding power setting you need to get the same heat (temp). See also “Heat Flux”.
Granted, this almost has to be done on two identical mods, with two identical atties, and two identical coils to fully appreciate/understand the correlation (at least IMO, as there could be too many variables otherwise).
I believe in this - one example springs to mind, a lemon and elderflower mix I make - higher wattage will give you a stronger lemon lower wattage will give you more elderflower.
@Jose 's comment on chocolates and coffees at higher wattage is also something I have experienced many chocolates will give a burnt taste at a higher wattage (like one of the shit coffee houses in town here that don’t clean the machine properly and use super hot water). There are a couple of chocolates that are unaffected by high wattage medicine flower dark chocolate is a good example. I am yet to find a coffee that doesn’t taste bitter when the power is high.
Ok… This will take a bit of digging (and time) into my notes at the other spot, because that’s the only place I kept them (like a dumbass). I should have written them in my notebook, but for a while, I was in the habit of just keying things in on my phone as I vaped (tested)…
I should also clarify that there’s a resounding NO, not all flavors exhibit this effect!! But I have seen it happen on more than a handful (or two) of instances.
I’m pretty sure that I need to look at Raspberry for one, possibly Boysenberry, and several others (of course). [I’m primarily putting these down for my own mental reminder]
I can understand that… To me though, given the differences in atties (chamber size, air pathing/turbulence, how choked off the wick-feeds might be, coil size limitations, etc etc) I do believe that the reason you see some atties discussed as delivering “great flavor” is directly relevant to what I’ve mentioned in parenthesis.
I have run temps up and down (as well as power) on many occasions, and with some mixes… I have been able to find different flavors being dominant/prominent/what have you, at different ranges in the same atty (my theorems).
It’s also possibly worth noting that this was most frequently seen (or, a learned experience) when I was testing mixes as they were maturing (3 days, 7 days, 2 weeks, etc). So I think that’s a potentially important thing to note.
That’s solely in regard to “highlights” though.
With respect to certain flavors needing certain power to bloom (or be “more noticeable”), that’s related, but a different kettle of fish.
Some would give a burned taste if you exceeded a certain power (my brown sugar tests come to mind). Some were just kind of “It’s kind of there, but it’s substantially lacking”, until I ran the power up past my normal point (roughly 30-40w typically). Once I did, then it was like “oh. WOW. There it is!” The realization of certain flavors needing certain power levels was both eye-opening, as well as frustrating (immediately, as well as what it meant for the future of how I felt I needed to test).
With that said, it’s not as prevalent as I initially feared (Thank God), BUT it’s still something that I try (frequently) when I have a flavor that doesn’t quite behave as expected OR when I’m delving into a new brand!
FlavourArt is definitely one where I’ve seen a flavor or two that seem to prefer “higher power” (relevantly speaking of course). To me that means anything above about 42-45w (as that’s bordering what I deem as being “medium power”).
BTW, I’m pissing MYSELF off at how much I’m trying to cover (or feel I’m having to avoid miscommunicating), so I know where some of you reading are… LMAO
Anyways, sorry for the novel. But there’s just SO damned much that ties in together IMO, that it’s hard NOT TO cover certain aspects. =/
No, I’m not. Every discussion yields a little more knowledge and understanding, and inevitably leads to more questions. Never sorry about that.
This highlights, yet again, just how complicated this “simple” hobby of DIY juice making is. There just seems to be absolutely no single checklist that can be applied universally to anything depending on the subject. It is all but impossible to write anything but a guideline; anyone who publishes a claimed definitive bible on DIY is almost surely full of horseshit. The best anyone will be able to do is make observations and give guidance; in the end it seems that every single recipe, every single concentrate, every single bit of kit would need to be thoroughly tested in many different conditions in order to ever be able to say “This Is, Period.” And I don’t think anyone ever in the history of vaping will ever test everything.
I’m also glad this was raised because there are what I believe are broad euphemisms and doubletalk where many, if not most, just don’t know what to make of the topic. I include myself in this. Wouldn’t it be great to all set down at a table and say “here, taste this. This is what I’m talking about.”
I noticed that Fish was asking about statements that certain wattage’s were claimed:
So the different statements about heat and wattage are why I said this. Enter the one and only @Sprkslfly who redefines “semantics” i.e. the meaning of a word, sentence, statement etc as “terminology;”
So how to unpack all of this? Damned if I know. Chocolates and coffees are nasty at high temps. But to me, they all are. Do chemical and physical changes occur in the flavoring itself? Not as if in @woftam recipe where if he lowers the temp the dominant flavor returns/ changes back.
I use steam engine to build and Check all my coils, so I use the heat flux at the bottom to determine how “hot” I run my coil. I usually prefer a heat flux of 240-280 for custards and candies and fruit/creams, but I have noticed that any bakery mix seems to taste better at 300-315 heat flux, and all of that distinction is with the same coil.
So if that same coil at 300 heat flux is running about 40 watts, then my cinnamon bakery mixes are good there, but even better if I switch to a coil where a 300 heat flux is 60 watts.
Granted what I am talking about is just flavor getting better, not really changing, but I have experienced that a few times too, just struggling to think of an example other than chocolate lol. Also, we’re talking about coils, but in reality we’re talking about how juice tastes and as always that’s subjective as hell lol so what coils do what for me is probably only applicable to me, just like which flavor I choose for which recipe.
The most striking example of this for me was a mix that unfortunately I don’t remember. It happened to be in VW mode. What I do remember is that I was vaping it at 75W and getting a good “blast” of flavor. For whatever reason, I lowered the power to around 55W. I perceived a definite separation of flavors starting with a definite strawberry followed by others. I attributed this to a slow heating time of the atty. The flavors of the vape were more subtle all around.