hmm…kinda seen my arse with anything RF…
You and me both kid 
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OK, I looked that one up in the UK Slang Dictionary, and it seems you’re mad at RF? Either that, or you had fish and chips for lunch. Dictionary wasn’t perfectly clear.
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And then there is Strayan (pronounced Stray - yan is Australian for Australian) which is a whole other language but still called English lol
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I completely agree.
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This is so something I would love to get to the bottom of. I am not sure why it happens that some love and some hate - RF have some the most polarising flavours on the market.
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Well, honestly, putting the fading issue aside…
I’m sick and tired of inconsistency. Walt’s got the largest case of “gotta-fuck-with-it-itis” that I’ve possibly ever seen in my life.
From VG, to extracts, to SC, and now to “add-a-drop” enhancers 
All in two years.
The whole idea of “enhancers” rubs me wrong. Either you get a flavor right, and introduce it as a line, or not. The premise of enhancers is full on IN YOUR FACE marketing bullshit IMO (if it’s not WS23, malic acid, etc).
The “extracts Era” had the most promise IMO. But obviously he figured out really quickly (though after the launch) that it wasn’t financially feasible, OR wasn’t sustainable (due to supplier limitations) at the volume he was going to need (underestimating the market/demand).
There’s many other “bitches and nitpicks” I’ve shared, and agreed with via PM’s… But the biggest problem for me at the moment is consistency. As long as it takes, and as much effort as goes into crafting a recipe that you plan on depending on for some time to come…the LAST THING I want to deal with is the ingredients changing, or not playing well together.
Perhaps if he can keep a line alive, consistent, and UNFUCKED WITH for say 2 years, then I /might/ consider giving him another chance. But after being hoodwinked with the 12%+ VG line, having the rug pulled out from under me with the Extracts line (it was NOT a simple rename as was implied: because strawberry changed!), and then the issues with fading (and higher than advertised %'s frequently required) in the SC line… I’m done.
Thrice burned.
I’m glad you enjoy them, but, for me, it is what it is man. =(
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Oh for sure mate I agree with a lot of that. I had about 50 of the vg line before the sc came out and while the taste was good i hated the %. If i use an RF in a mix that I sell a lot of I will get a 4oz of it for those very reasons.
The sc line is pretty consistent now from what i can tell but the 30ml are not avail on the website atm.
I am talking more about the fade than anything else happening behind the scenes.
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I know. Sorry for the outburst. It’s just built up frustration man. I apologize.
It’s just that so much hope, time, good faith, etc was poured into the various lines/products…and the net results (overall) were the same: sadness.
The problem IMO is, it’s the “behind the scenes” that’s affecting the rest.
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No problem mate I get it 
Always make me giggle when i see the no pg mixers raving about rf sc as well check the msds for the sc strawberry
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I hope you don’t mind the tangential reference. I know this will strike home with you. Substitution is a huge problem that plagues many fields. I was working with a medical company on septicemia instrumentation and about a year into launch the instruments started weirding out. Thank God not false negatives but really inconsistent data tabulation. The computer was proprietary. After an insane search down a few tiers of board makers, sure enough a thought innocuous change that passed all performed QC testing was causing the malfunction. Scary business.
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No doubt there. And it’s something I’ve seen quite a few times over the 30+ years I’ve been involved in/with electronics.
All silicon is not created equal (from life expectancy, to conductivity). All PCB’s are not created equal (from trace depth, to integrity of via’s, to board elasticity). All contact points are not created equal (from plating, to sub-structure materials, to finish)… Which is why I’m so picky (and curious about) quality, and trying to learn who actually makes what. It’s also why I usually don’t care what brand is stamped on it, because it’s the components and workmanship that impress me, as it’s those factors that are relied on the most IMO.
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I can only go off my own experience man, first it was the whole VG line that I spent a fortune on…still got that garbage in the fridge, then I fell for all the ELR hype with the SC…spent a fortune again, haven’t made a single recipe with them that I liked enough to make again. People raved about the SB but I just didnt get it at all, I’m not really a fruit vaper though, and their custard was shit imo, their creams were average at best and I didn’t rate any of there bakery or deserts…the baked bread was OK but I soon got bored of that too…and then there’s the fade…I know taste is subjective so I don’t slate them, they just aint for me, the only thing I did like about the whole concentrate line…was Walt lol.
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Slightly derailed the thread maybe the rf stuff could me moved?
I think it has a lot to do with different palettes in different countries - but there is also the fact they are hard to work with the window between just right, not enough, too much is very small. The thing about rf is if you are in the too much or the too little it doesnt taste like anything.
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The use of pdo in rf is what can cause the mute effect that many see and it is all about the % people use. There seems to be a tipping point at when it kicks in % wise (re the mute) - the use of pdo was touted as the next best thing a few years back
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I’m fairly certain the source you used made an error (but, like you say, I’m not a chemist either)…Though I believe it’s correct until the italics.
PG = 1,2
PDO = 1,3
One molecule difference…is it any wonder us “normal folks” get confused easily?
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Oh shit missed that nice catch mate. Forget what i said about pdo.
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No, you were bang on. PDO did cause muting.
Ok, at least it did for me! And I had (still have) the real deal (branded as Zemea), straight from the bastards that make it. It was almost impossible to get because of their restrictions on not wanting it to be used with vaping.
It solved the issue with PG sensitivities, but the side effect (flavor muting) rendered it null in potential use IMO.
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I don’t think it has ever been mentioned by Walt that there was no pg (but he sure knew there were ppl who wanted no pg) - the msds sheets only appeared on the site a week or so back. I haven’t looked at the vg version but i assume that there was actually no pg in that and people made the leap that the sc was the same. I only looked because PV always said it was pdo based (and i thought for a second when you posted i have inadvertently proved his point)
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To me, that ties in with “all of the label changes”.
First extracts. Well not all are going to be able to be extracts now…the simplest way out? Rename the line. That frees up the extracts requirements and limitations. And it opens up the leeway for the others.
Then it shifted from “PG free/dye free/etc free” labeling, to the new labels targeting the “fear market” (Diacetyl/Acetyl/Acetyl Propionyl). Well, that change allowed them to get away from mentioning PG free… But meanwhile, they’ve already created the impression that their flavors are PG free among many. Meanwhile, that’s obviously no longer the case… But then the question arises “ok, is that with some, or with all?” But, you also noted a soft shift in marketing to ‘We’ve got an all new PG line…’
I dunno. There’s just been too many changes, in too short a time, that leave too much unaccounted for. Again. Too much smoke (lack of clarity in marketing), and too much shift (hey look at this…)
Again though, this is all my humble opinion, and what I’ve observed.
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